I ran across this site in while I was checking the internet for infomration on the CGT church in Cross Plains. I am not close to the current situations as some of you obviously and regretfully are. There is no excuse for abuse or molestation and any such action should be punished to the maximum extent of the law. However, I realize my personal ability to bring justice to this situation is very limited and to be honest, non-existent. I did want to ask though about some of the teachings that are mentioned concerning the Restored Church, Perfection, etc. I have never heard these teachings and definetly do not hold the views mentioned concerning those topics. Also, if anyone is interested, I would like to understand more about your understanding on what a church should preach concerning behaviour, appearance, relationships, etc. I do recognize some of the issues that are mentioned concerning these topics but I'm still not sure in my own heart where the lines are. I know there are lines because there have to be lines or everyone just does what is right in their own eyes. However, I realize that control is never the answer. I guess I have been fortunate to not be in a church setting that is controlled. I currently attend a GAC church but am not comfortable mentioning where right at this moment. Please respect my feelings on this.
i will be happy to answer your questions, but they are a little vague to answer right now. there are so many categories of behavior, appearance, and relationships. i'm not really sure what you're asking.
i believe there are guidelines in the word regarding all the things you addressed.
Thanks for the respect. I understand it is somewhat vague. While I say I have not heard these teachings I should be more specific and say I have not heard them in my church. I guess the better thing to do is to state clearly what my understanding is and then a comparison could be made by such a one as yourself. My personal understanding is the "church" is really a collection of people called out of the world. Those individuals get together in groups during their lifetimes and begin the process of walking towards eternity in fellowship with other pilgrims of the same time period. These believers should do their best to learn and understand the principles of God that should govern their lives now that they are new creatures in Christ. The journery of growing in Christ begins with initial salvation. We uncover the concept of our sinfulness and his holiness but in no way do we fully understand it as we should the more we grow in our relationship with the Father. As we progress we begin to uncover the struggle between surrending to God vs. maintaining our selfish ways. In this struggle we find the communion of surrender to his will. We take the death and resurrection of Christ into our life on a personal basis. This eventually culiminates into a life that is lived for God rather than ones self. The goal is conformity to the image of God's son, Jesus Christ. At some point in the process death interrupts the journey and the believer has finished their course. At some point in the unknown future, Jesus will return in the same manner he ascended (visibly in a personal return) and bring a lasting peace. The churches part in all of this is to be a people justified and sanctified by the blood of Jesus alone. We proclaim that there is no other way for men to be saved. We point people to the word of God as a means to obtaining and understanding salvation. In each "church" there are wheat and tares and only God knows who is what. At the time of the resurrection, the two classes of believers, dead and undead, will meet the Lord in the air and the fun will begin. I realize this is way over simplified but my point is see if what I believe as a GAC attender is unbiblical.
i believe the church is made up of god's elect people. those chosen before the foundations of the world to be his people, set apart for his glory. everyone who believes the gospel (that the eternal son of god became a man, lived the life we should have lived, and died the death we should have died, rose on the third day, and ascended to the father)is a member of the church.
a term you used that gives me pause is 'the initial stage of salvation. i'm not sure what you mean by that, but at cgt a person who experiences 'initial salvation' isn't completely saved. they believe three stages of salvation must occur before a person is truly eternally saved. can you tell me what you mean by initial salvation?
once you do, i'll keep going. i really want to make sure we understand each other.
Initial stage of salvation is probably a poor choice of words. What I mean is simply that when I was initially saved, I did not have a full understanding of just how sinful I was. I felt the weight of my sins but did not understand the details of just how sinful a creature I really was. When I confessed my sins and accepted Christ as my substitute sacrifice, I was legally freed from suffering the second death. I could never get any more saved in my life than I was at that moment. However, I could become "less saved" if I leave the ground of faith in Jesus' sacrifice. That "leaving" could be done by either leaving the gospel completely (Paul refers to this as having faith that is shipwrecked) or by taking any doctrine into my life whereby I begin to add works as a means of keeping my salvation. Works are fruits that are produced by being in a saving realtionship with God through Jesus. Those works (or fruit) are not viewed by God as a reason to save or love me but are seen as evidence that faith in Jesus exists within my heart. (i.e. James 2)
I guess the reason I am putting my beliefs out in the open to you is because I am not sure if your position is that anyone who is part of a GAC church is automatically deemed part of a cult or if the test is the belief system itself and church administration. I can understand how people could view many of the GAC churches as cultish due to the pile of rules and regulations that seem to be present in some. However, my personal local church experience has been one of freedom to worship and discover the Lord in a personal way without having alot of those type of issues. It actually saddens me and to be perfectly honest, hurts to see the hopelessness that comes from trying to be a christian without placing Christ where he belongs. He is my only hope for salvation... past, present and future. I will never deserve the position he has given me as a child of God and will spend this earthly life telling him that. I'll also spend it telling others about this glorious gospel that changed my life now and my eternal future.
Can you explain to me the three stage viewpoint. I'm not sure I've heart that before. Do you mean confessing sins, water baptism, receiving the holy ghost? Not sure what you mean. Let me put it this way, I believe there are saved catholics, baptists, methodists, pentecostals, etc. I also believed there are unsaved catholics, baptists, methodists, pentecostals, etc. The difference is what is their faith in. True simple faith in the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin. Faith in anything else pollutes that blood and is an abomination to God. Nothing is as valuable as the blood of his son. I'm sure we will disagree on some details of all this but how do you feel about the basic understanding I have. Is it what you would consider cultish?
i believe a person is justified, sanctified, and guaranteed glorification the moment their faith is placed in jesus. i don't believe a person can lose their salvation. i know a lot of people who disagree with me on this one who are incredible christian people. paul speaks of us already sitting in heavenly places with christ. he speaks of our adoption in terms of having it, yet not fully realizing it. so, i we are seen as completely holy before god even in our remaining sin. like our adotption, our sanctification will be completely realized when we see jesus.
i love the way you write about becoming more aware of our sin as we grow. absolutely. as we see more of his holiness, we see more of our own depravity.
you wrote about the works being evidence instead of something that gets a reward. does your church teach the resurrection in revelation 20 to be a second chance to become mature in christ?
another place where we might disagree is when a person receives the holy spirit. i don't believe he is received after salvation when someone speaks in other tongues. also, i would like to know your views on who jesus is.
please know, i'm not saying this in any type of anger or bitterness. just openness. i consider any group who believes jesus to be less than god the father a cult. you may not even believe that.
i have really tried to keep my comments off of 'gac' and on 'cgt' because that is what i know. i didn't really go to meetings and get real involved in other aspects of the movement.
i would have to know a lot more about your doctrine before i used the word cult. i just don't have enough information.
i completely agree there are saved people in varying denominations. but, i would urge a catholic to get out of the rcc and into a bible teaching church.
i'm enjoying the dialogue. thanks for taking the time.
you keep asking about whether or not you're in a cult. i'm probably not going to be able to answer that based on internet dialogue. it's just not a word i want to throw around without knowing beyond a shadow of doubt what you believe. i think internet communication can be especially difficult.
i have some problems with your christology. i believe jesus is the eternal son of god. very god of very god. he has a different role than the father and the spirit, but is no less god than either of them. in love, i would encourage you to continue to study who jesus is.
i'll tell you a story that might help you understand where i stand on things. a few years ago my grandpa and i were having a conversation. i asked him how he knew he was saved. he told me he knew because of the life he lived. i was devastated. i so badly wanted him to answer it was because of what jesus had done for him. sobbing, i called my pastor. he told me something a seminary professor had told him. he said, "understanding the doctrine of justification doesn't save somebody. the doctrine of justification saves them." he todl me he couldn't say if my grandpa was saved or not, but i shouldn't completely lose hope.
i think i need to make something clear. i am speaking out against a group. the group is made up of individuals, but it is a group. something i don't understand is a current trend that seems to be popping up at cgt, and maybe across all the gac churches. there is a trend of people talking about how they all have different beliefs and are just on a journey. you seem to have a lot of beliefs that you don't share with others in your church.
paul wrote about one faith. one of the most important aspects of churches is it is a group of people who share a common faith. what is essential.
you mentioned (i think) people in your church who think you must speak in tongues to have the holy spirit. it seems like you don't believe that. if somebody doesn't have the spirit, they don't belong to god. if they don't have the spirit, they aren't a child of god. i don't understand why you would worship at a church with such differing views of who is or who is not truly born again.
can i ask what keeps you there?
i hope this wasn't too much rambling. it has been a long day. i don't know if you read my blog today, but a high school student that i coach was involved in an accident where his five year old sister died. i'm a teacher and school ends tomorrow. we're having a graduation ceremony and we've had a lot of tears and business surrounding the event. also, you can imagine how stressful all this lawsuit stuff is regarding cgt. lots of balls in the air right now. i'm not firing on all cylinders.
thanks for that post. you don't sound condescending at all. i appreciate you taking the time to share all of those things.
regarding the one faith, i agree it is faith in christ that it refers to. i do think it is important to make sure it is the christ of the bible. i am sure you would agree, and i hope that didn't sound condescending either.
if you're interested, i took seminary class by douglas kelly at rts. rts offers the classes for free on itunes. if you type in douglas kelly and systematic theology 3 you'll find his lessons on christology. i would love for you to listen to them and see what you think. it is the best class i've had so far. worship for me, while taking that class, was the most intense worship of my life. seeing the glory of christ expounded opened my eyes even more to his greatness and humility (not that they're opposed).
thanks again for taking the time to talk about these things.
thanks for the words about the chapmans. i went to the visitation tonight. they're an amazing family. they need prayer right now. please especially remember their son. he is hurting deeply.
Please forgive my ignorance. What is rts? I am interested in taking some online classes for religion. I have never been taught against it or for it. I only received encouragement to search the scriptures. To this point in my life, I have done that through personal study and through church attendance. I'll check out Douglas Kelly on iTunes and see what I can dig up.
Please forgive my ignorance. What is rts? I am interested in taking some online classes for religion. I have never been taught against it or for it. I only received encouragement to search the scriptures. To this point in my life, I have done that through personal study and through church attendance. I'll check out Douglas Kelly on iTunes and see what I can dig up.
i had such a prejudice against seminary. it took a lot for me to enroll and actually begin, but i'm thankful i did. it is definitely challenging to make sure you don't let the gospel become purely academic. it has been a struggle at times to not become dry in my faith, but overall, it has been a positive experience. some classes are amazing and others, not so much.
rts stands for reformed theological seminary. i'm not sure where you're from. douglas kelly is a little challenging if you're not from the south. i'm not, and the first time i had him, his voice drove me crazy. by the second class, i could handle it a lot better.
i hope you enjoy the classes. you can listen to all of the classes they offer on itunes for free. it's a pretty cool deal.
11 comments:
I ran across this site in while I was checking the internet for infomration on the CGT church in Cross Plains. I am not close to the current situations as some of you obviously and regretfully are. There is no excuse for abuse or molestation and any such action should be punished to the maximum extent of the law. However, I realize my personal ability to bring justice to this situation is very limited and to be honest, non-existent. I did want to ask though about some of the teachings that are mentioned concerning the Restored Church, Perfection, etc. I have never heard these teachings and definetly do not hold the views mentioned concerning those topics. Also, if anyone is interested, I would like to understand more about your understanding on what a church should preach concerning behaviour, appearance, relationships, etc. I do recognize some of the issues that are mentioned concerning these topics but I'm still not sure in my own heart where the lines are. I know there are lines because there have to be lines or everyone just does what is right in their own eyes. However, I realize that control is never the answer. I guess I have been fortunate to not be in a church setting that is controlled. I currently attend a GAC church but am not comfortable mentioning where right at this moment. Please respect my feelings on this.
i completely respect your anonymity.
i will be happy to answer your questions, but they are a little vague to answer right now. there are so many categories of behavior, appearance, and relationships. i'm not really sure what you're asking.
i believe there are guidelines in the word regarding all the things you addressed.
Thanks for the respect. I understand it is somewhat vague. While I say I have not heard these teachings I should be more specific and say I have not heard them in my church. I guess the better thing to do is to state clearly what my understanding is and then a comparison could be made by such a one as yourself. My personal understanding is the "church" is really a collection of people called out of the world. Those individuals get together in groups during their lifetimes and begin the process of walking towards eternity in fellowship with other pilgrims of the same time period. These believers should do their best to learn and understand the principles of God that should govern their lives now that they are new creatures in Christ. The journery of growing in Christ begins with initial salvation. We uncover the concept of our sinfulness and his holiness but in no way do we fully understand it as we should the more we grow in our relationship with the Father. As we progress we begin to uncover the struggle between surrending to God vs. maintaining our selfish ways. In this struggle we find the communion of surrender to his will. We take the death and resurrection of Christ into our life on a personal basis. This eventually culiminates into a life that is lived for God rather than ones self. The goal is conformity to the image of God's son, Jesus Christ. At some point in the process death interrupts the journey and the believer has finished their course. At some point in the unknown future, Jesus will return in the same manner he ascended (visibly in a personal return) and bring a lasting peace. The churches part in all of this is to be a people justified and sanctified by the blood of Jesus alone. We proclaim that there is no other way for men to be saved. We point people to the word of God as a means to obtaining and understanding salvation. In each "church" there are wheat and tares and only God knows who is what. At the time of the resurrection, the two classes of believers, dead and undead, will meet the Lord in the air and the fun will begin. I realize this is way over simplified but my point is see if what I believe as a GAC attender is unbiblical.
i believe the church is made up of god's elect people. those chosen before the foundations of the world to be his people, set apart for his glory. everyone who believes the gospel (that the eternal son of god became a man, lived the life we should have lived, and died the death we should have died, rose on the third day, and ascended to the father)is a member of the church.
a term you used that gives me pause is 'the initial stage of salvation. i'm not sure what you mean by that, but at cgt a person who experiences 'initial salvation' isn't completely saved. they believe three stages of salvation must occur before a person is truly eternally saved. can you tell me what you mean by initial salvation?
once you do, i'll keep going. i really want to make sure we understand each other.
thanks for your patience.
danny
Initial stage of salvation is probably a poor choice of words. What I mean is simply that when I was initially saved, I did not have a full understanding of just how sinful I was. I felt the weight of my sins but did not understand the details of just how sinful a creature I really was. When I confessed my sins and accepted Christ as my substitute sacrifice, I was legally freed from suffering the second death. I could never get any more saved in my life than I was at that moment. However, I could become "less saved" if I leave the ground of faith in Jesus' sacrifice. That "leaving" could be done by either leaving the gospel completely (Paul refers to this as having faith that is shipwrecked) or by taking any doctrine into my life whereby I begin to add works as a means of keeping my salvation. Works are fruits that are produced by being in a saving realtionship with God through Jesus. Those works (or fruit) are not viewed by God as a reason to save or love me but are seen as evidence that faith in Jesus exists within my heart. (i.e. James 2)
I guess the reason I am putting my beliefs out in the open to you is because I am not sure if your position is that anyone who is part of a GAC church is automatically deemed part of a cult or if the test is the belief system itself and church administration. I can understand how people could view many of the GAC churches as cultish due to the pile of rules and regulations that seem to be present in some. However, my personal local church experience has been one of freedom to worship and discover the Lord in a personal way without having alot of those type of issues. It actually saddens me and to be perfectly honest, hurts to see the hopelessness that comes from trying to be a christian without placing Christ where he belongs. He is my only hope for salvation... past, present and future. I will never deserve the position he has given me as a child of God and will spend this earthly life telling him that. I'll also spend it telling others about this glorious gospel that changed my life now and my eternal future.
Can you explain to me the three stage viewpoint. I'm not sure I've heart that before. Do you mean confessing sins, water baptism, receiving the holy ghost? Not sure what you mean. Let me put it this way, I believe there are saved catholics, baptists, methodists, pentecostals, etc. I also believed there are unsaved catholics, baptists, methodists, pentecostals, etc. The difference is what is their faith in. True simple faith in the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin. Faith in anything else pollutes that blood and is an abomination to God. Nothing is as valuable as the blood of his son. I'm sure we will disagree on some details of all this but how do you feel about the basic understanding I have. Is it what you would consider cultish?
i believe a person is justified, sanctified, and guaranteed glorification the moment their faith is placed in jesus. i don't believe a person can lose their salvation. i know a lot of people who disagree with me on this one who are incredible christian people. paul speaks of us already sitting in heavenly places with christ. he speaks of our adoption in terms of having it, yet not fully realizing it. so, i we are seen as completely holy before god even in our remaining sin. like our adotption, our sanctification will be completely realized when we see jesus.
i love the way you write about becoming more aware of our sin as we grow. absolutely. as we see more of his holiness, we see more of our own depravity.
you wrote about the works being evidence instead of something that gets a reward. does your church teach the resurrection in revelation 20 to be a second chance to become mature in christ?
another place where we might disagree is when a person receives the holy spirit. i don't believe he is received after salvation when someone speaks in other tongues. also, i would like to know your views on who jesus is.
please know, i'm not saying this in any type of anger or bitterness. just openness. i consider any group who believes jesus to be less than god the father a cult. you may not even believe that.
i have really tried to keep my comments off of 'gac' and on 'cgt' because that is what i know. i didn't really go to meetings and get real involved in other aspects of the movement.
i would have to know a lot more about your doctrine before i used the word cult. i just don't have enough information.
i completely agree there are saved people in varying denominations. but, i would urge a catholic to get out of the rcc and into a bible teaching church.
i'm enjoying the dialogue. thanks for taking the time.
danny
you keep asking about whether or not you're in a cult. i'm probably not going to be able to answer that based on internet dialogue. it's just not a word i want to throw around without knowing beyond a shadow of doubt what you believe. i think internet communication can be especially difficult.
i have some problems with your christology. i believe jesus is the eternal son of god. very god of very god. he has a different role than the father and the spirit, but is no less god than either of them. in love, i would encourage you to continue to study who jesus is.
i'll tell you a story that might help you understand where i stand on things. a few years ago my grandpa and i were having a conversation. i asked him how he knew he was saved. he told me he knew because of the life he lived. i was devastated. i so badly wanted him to answer it was because of what jesus had done for him. sobbing, i called my pastor. he told me something a seminary professor had told him. he said, "understanding the doctrine of justification doesn't save somebody. the doctrine of justification saves them." he todl me he couldn't say if my grandpa was saved or not, but i shouldn't completely lose hope.
i think i need to make something clear. i am speaking out against a group. the group is made up of individuals, but it is a group. something i don't understand is a current trend that seems to be popping up at cgt, and maybe across all the gac churches. there is a trend of people talking about how they all have different beliefs and are just on a journey. you seem to have a lot of beliefs that you don't share with others in your church.
paul wrote about one faith. one of the most important aspects of churches is it is a group of people who share a common faith. what is essential.
you mentioned (i think) people in your church who think you must speak in tongues to have the holy spirit. it seems like you don't believe that. if somebody doesn't have the spirit, they don't belong to god. if they don't have the spirit, they aren't a child of god. i don't understand why you would worship at a church with such differing views of who is or who is not truly born again.
can i ask what keeps you there?
i hope this wasn't too much rambling. it has been a long day. i don't know if you read my blog today, but a high school student that i coach was involved in an accident where his five year old sister died. i'm a teacher and school ends tomorrow. we're having a graduation ceremony and we've had a lot of tears and business surrounding the event. also, you can imagine how stressful all this lawsuit stuff is regarding cgt. lots of balls in the air right now. i'm not firing on all cylinders.
thanks for your patience.
danny
thanks for that post. you don't sound condescending at all. i appreciate you taking the time to share all of those things.
regarding the one faith, i agree it is faith in christ that it refers to. i do think it is important to make sure it is the christ of the bible. i am sure you would agree, and i hope that didn't sound condescending either.
if you're interested, i took seminary class by douglas kelly at rts. rts offers the classes for free on itunes. if you type in douglas kelly and systematic theology 3 you'll find his lessons on christology. i would love for you to listen to them and see what you think. it is the best class i've had so far. worship for me, while taking that class, was the most intense worship of my life. seeing the glory of christ expounded opened my eyes even more to his greatness and humility (not that they're opposed).
thanks again for taking the time to talk about these things.
thanks for the words about the chapmans. i went to the visitation tonight. they're an amazing family. they need prayer right now. please especially remember their son. he is hurting deeply.
thanks again,
danny
Please forgive my ignorance. What is rts? I am interested in taking some online classes for religion. I have never been taught against it or for it. I only received encouragement to search the scriptures. To this point in my life, I have done that through personal study and through church attendance. I'll check out Douglas Kelly on iTunes and see what I can dig up.
Please forgive my ignorance. What is rts? I am interested in taking some online classes for religion. I have never been taught against it or for it. I only received encouragement to search the scriptures. To this point in my life, I have done that through personal study and through church attendance. I'll check out Douglas Kelly on iTunes and see what I can dig up.
i had such a prejudice against seminary. it took a lot for me to enroll and actually begin, but i'm thankful i did. it is definitely challenging to make sure you don't let the gospel become purely academic. it has been a struggle at times to not become dry in my faith, but overall, it has been a positive experience. some classes are amazing and others, not so much.
rts stands for reformed theological seminary. i'm not sure where you're from. douglas kelly is a little challenging if you're not from the south. i'm not, and the first time i had him, his voice drove me crazy. by the second class, i could handle it a lot better.
i hope you enjoy the classes. you can listen to all of the classes they offer on itunes for free. it's a pretty cool deal.
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